Adult Site Broker Talk Episode 285 with Ricci Levy of Woodhull Freedom Foundation
This is Bruce Friedman of Adult Site Broker, and welcome to Adult Site Broker Talk, where each week we interview one of the movers and shakers of the adult industry, and we give you a tip on buying and selling websites. This week we'll be speaking with Ricci Levy of Woodhull Freedom Foundation in part one of a two-part interview. I'll be in Hollywood for XBiz LA January 12th through the 15th. I hope to see many of you there. If you'd like to sit down and discuss business, contact me at adultsidebroker.com. We're proud to announce our latest project, thewaronporn.com. You'll find articles on age verification laws and other attacks on our industry. It's to raise awareness of our industry's plight in the war on porn. You'll find all that and more at thewaronporn.com. Now time for our properties of the week for sale at AdultSight Broker. We have a premium AI companion platform focused on emotional realism and deep memory. Users interact with lifelike companions that remember every detail and respond with real emotion. We have a network of BDSM subreddits. It has over 1.49 million users, over 3.8 million posts, and almost 45,000 comments. There's a porn picture site with both a Web3 and a Web2 domain. The keyword of the domains is one of the most globally recognized in search terms in the world, porn. We have a buyer who's looking for dating and lifestyle sites in Europe. they would also consider other geos. We're offering a strip-chat white label. The average user spends 24 minutes on the site. We have a network of interracial reality hardcore sites. The main site has reality hardcore porn with amateur girls as well as some porn stars. There's a unique platform that bridges the gap between mainstream social link services like Linktree and adult content creators on platforms like OnlyFans. They combine a bio link with the ability to send virtual gifts. We're offering a growing free porn gaming site with adult sex games. The site is owned by one of the top entrepreneurs in our industry. And there's a highly active, organically grown Reddit community centered around the stocking and foot fetish niches. For more information, go to our listings page at adultsitebroker.com. If you have any questions, please contact us on our website. Now time for this week's interview. My guest today on Adult Site Broker Talk is Ricky Levy of Woodhole Freedom Foundation, one of my favorite people. Ricky, thanks for being back with us on Adult Site Broker Talk. Bruce, thank you so much for having me. You're one of my favorite people too, by the way. I enjoy all of your podcasts. You're too sweet. I am too sweet. Let's tell people about you. Rikki is the president and CEO of Woodhull Freedom Foundation, the nation's leading human rights organization dedicated to affirming sexual freedom as a fundamental human right. A longtime activist and coalition builder, Rikki has spent her career defending free expression, advocating for the rights and dignity of sex workers, and challenging laws and policies that restrict personal autonomy. Under her leadership, Woodhull has become a national force in the fight against censorship and government overreach, bringing together lawyers, activists, and communities to protect and advance human rights for all. Woodhull's mission is to protect sexual freedom as a fundamental human right. So, Ricky, how do recent legislative attacks on adult content fit into the broader pattern of threats to those rights? Oh, censorship is the first line of attack. It's always been the first line of attack. If you look back at, well, let's just go back to Nazi Germany. What was the first action? It was censorship. And if you remove access to the truth, then you get to claim the dialogue. Any speech that's censored becomes government speech. And that means all of our rights are in danger. And, you know, we're all affected by everything that's going on, even if we don't see it immediately, even if we don't make the connection. Like what do pride sidewalks in Florida have to do, let's say, with the adult entertainment industry? A lot. Yeah. But if you just look at sidewalks, it's easy to miss the fact that this is just one tool, just one weapon in a coordinated attack aimed to erase the community, the LGBTQ community, and to eliminate pornography. It's right out of the battle plan, which is Project 2025. Big time. Well, and in this lovely administration, we're already seeing many signs of government censorship. I start out by giving you Stephen Colbert. Yes. You know, anything that this administration, and by the way, I don't think it's just Trump. I'm not sure how much really comes from directly from Trump. He's not smart enough. Yeah, I mean, he wants to golf and eat hamburgers. But he's also a vindictive person. And if you cross him, he's coming after you. So what does that do? It gives other people who might speak truth, it gives pause. And a lot of times that pause turns into a stroll away from the issue. You know, it's the first time I've been doing this work at Woodhull since 2003. And this is the first time that I ever paused. Hello. Yes. That I ever paused and thought, do I want to expose my family to what might happen? Do I want to expose me to what might happen? But the other side of that is I think that speaking out with Woodhull's voice is vitally important to countering the bullshit that's out there. Oh, big time. No doubt about it. I don't know how he got Bill Maher to the White House, but it's sickening me just to let you know. Why do you think Bill Maher went? He's afraid of him. Yeah, there we go. Chilling. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, big time. Big time. You see it in Congress. You know, legislators want to come back. Most of them. Although we're seeing a lot of people saying they're not running again. Yeah, Joni Ernst, which, thank you, God. But anyway, you know, I mean, we're doing this in September, by the way, and it will run in December. But every day, I read things that just blow my mind. This makes the first administration look like nothing. Yeah, the first administration was a practice run. Oh, yeah. Well, he's doing everything he said he was going to do, isn't he? Well, that's the thing that, you know, as many people sit around and say, oh, my God, I had no idea it was going to be this bad. And I think, how did you not know? They shared Project 2025. Did you not read it? And, okay, it's a really long document. But did you not read the first 10 pages? I looked at the highlights. I looked at the highlights. Yeah. Yeah. It's like watching a traffic accident reading that. Absolutely. Well, he's got his henchmen like Russell Vogt doing his dirty work for him. And that bastard, oh my goodness gracious. If anybody hasn't heard, and I'm sure you have, the secretly taped interview with him talking about how age verification laws were set up to ban porn from the back door. Well, then you need to watch that because it's amazing. It's right there. Yeah. And for some reason, and I don't know what the reason is. Well, yes, I do. People get overwhelmed. I was going to say for some reason, these are not the things that get the attention they should get. But it's because people get overwhelmed. And the media is scared, too. I know. Well, I mean, you look at things like potential mergers and all, and yeah, it's really, really crazy. I know that ESPN is working on some kind of a merger, and they've had to tiptoe when it comes to him, and that's sports. Right. It's insane. It's sports. I was sad when the Eagles, this has nothing to do with anything, but I was sad when they went to the White House and they accepted the invitation. Yes. That just took all the pleasure of them winning because I'm a Philly girl. That took all the pleasure of that victory right out of the room for me. Well, the Dodgers went, okay. I mean, I hate the Dodgers. I'm a Giants fan, but I mean, the Dodgers went. The fact that Dave Roberts' team went, and I know Dave Roberts and how he leans politically. Okay. That had to just make him want to throw up. But didn't he have the ability to stop them from going? Of course. As did the owners. Ugh. Yep. But they went. What a mess we've got, Bruce. What a mess. Nice to be in Thailand. Yes. Oh, I'll put that on my list of places to consider. people are moving and and oh i know yeah and there will be more and well all i can say is he's doing a great job of uh the work that putin's paying him for anyway many lawmakers frame adult content restrictions as protecting children you mentioned that before how do you respond to those arguments and what's the real impact of these laws well look everybody wants to protect children I'm a mother. I'm a grandmother. I certainly want to protect children. But talking about the laws, particularly age verification laws, as protecting children is just an excuse. There are two flags that always work to get legislation passed. One is protecting children, and the other is ending trafficking. I knew you were going there. Fostas Sesta sure didn't do that. No, it didn't And nobody talks about that anymore, do they? Not that I've heard Nope, nope, nope I do Well, and we do, of course We sued to stop that At Woodhull Freedom Foundation Gosh, versus the United States of America I love it I did too, I still do It wasn't your first and it won't be your last No, you're right You're right, that's what we're here for to give voice to address the issues that other people don't address. So, you know, these laws that are supposed to protect children, that's an excuse. And it's an excuse to block access to adult content. In reality, those laws undermine safety, they force surveillance, and they don't stop actual harm. No, of course not. They can't cite one instance that FOSTA says to has stopped trafficking. All it did was shut down a bunch of escort sites and it obviously chilled the speech of everybody in adult as well. Let's not forget about that. But as far as the escort sites go, that was the way to keep a lot of these people off the streets. I'd say women, but there were men too. It was a way to keep them safe. There were also John. All the websites. Yeah, there were bad John. Bad John websites, yeah. Yeah, I just interviewed Phoenix Collider the other day. Yeah, just today, Ash Miller. So, yeah, I've been knee deep in the whole sex worker rights movement as of late. So, you know, that sex worker rights movement, that's a bright spot because, you know, the estimates for how many people who engage in sex work or how many people are direct prostitutes are in the millions. And if you look at some statistics, I was just looking at this yesterday. The U.S. has the highest number in the world. Now, I don't know if the number is accurate. It's one of those things that not everybody's going to identify, particularly if it's prostitution, because that's not legal. So I hear. Yes. And look how well that's worked in stopping it. There's a case of government overreach that has gone on forever with absolutely no impact. None. It hasn't stopped sex work. It hasn't stopped the sale of sexual activities. Talking about the Nordic law? Well, no, that doesn't work at all. And the Nordic model is the one where you don't punish, theoretically, the person selling sex, you punish the person buying sex. So everything else aside, and there is so much to be said against that particular model. But everything else aside, when you are trying theoretically to protect sex workers, create a situation where they could be killed to keep them quiet. And then you have the Nordic laws. But why not just decriminalize it? Yeah, exactly. No two ways about it. There's a few things they should decriminalize. They still haven't done it nationwide with marijuana either, which is ludicrous. I was just thinking that, yeah. Absolutely ludicrous. And they're talking about, and some states have already passed, getting rid of gay marriage. So, I don't know. Well, let's talk about that for a minute. So, the Supreme Court made no secret of the fact that they're looking for a case to overturn same-sex marriage. They made no secret about it. And now we have Kim, whose last name I can't remember, the clerk who wouldn't give a marriage license, the four times divorced clerk who wouldn't give a marriage license to same-sex couples. So here we have Kim petitioning the Supreme Court to take her case. I don't think, I don't know, I could be very wrong, but I don't think this is the case they're going to take to overturn marriage equality. They could do it and just ignore reality as they've been doing lately. Well, it's not a real strong one. It's just not strong enough. But that may not stop them. They may figure, we've only got a couple more years while this administration is here. Let's take the advantage and overturn marriage equality. But you know what else has reared its ugly head is the Comstock law. There's a case in Texas where a woman is suing the pharmaceutical companies and her husband or partner, I don't remember the exact details, under the Comstock law. She was pregnant and apparently didn't want to have an abortion and he wanted her to have an abortion and he got pills through the mail that he allegedly put in her coffee or something and she lost the baby. I should say she lost the fetus. Yeah, right. Yeah, but at the same time, that's a pretty extreme thing. I mean, if he didn't go to jail for it, he should. That's kind of like poisoning, you know. It is. But she's citing the Comstock law because he got the medication in the mail. And now they're talking about, well, they've been talking about how to limit like methestopone. And, you know, it's not a stretch to imagine that there comes a day that they resurrect the Comstock law, reverse the repeal that was in the 70s, that blocked the ability to mail anything sexually. So if they reverse the repeal of that section, no sex toys, no books that are sexual, no medication, no medical devices, it's not a stretch to imagine that that's where we're headed. Well, you know, he's already taken us back 50 years. Why the hell not? Why not go all the way? Not only him, but his Supreme Court. I mean, my God. Yeah, I heard Amy Comey Barrett wrote a book. There was something about something that she quoted on there and I just put on X cunt. So anyway. Yeah, you know, the Supreme Court is something else. Way back, a State of the Union something that took place in Congress that the Supreme Court was there for, probably the State of the Union. So there were lots of things wrong with the way things were before Trump. If there weren't things that were wrong with our government before Trump, Trump wouldn't have been able to do what Trump's done, right? But the Supreme Court, I thought, would be above all of it. And one of the things I used to love was watching the Supreme Court in the front row for State of the Union speeches and how their faces were flat out neutral. Nobody smiled, nobody frowned, nobody raised eyebrows because that was the tradition and what they had to do. And I like that. Well, during one of the first one, I guess, of Trump's addresses to Congress, the Supreme Court came in, they took their seats. And every time the camera flashed on them, someone in that row, or multiple people in that row, you could see they were pleased, they were annoyed, they were skeptical. Everything was right there on their faces. And I thought, we are in deep shit. Indeed. Indeed. And unfortunately, they're all, well, most of them are fairly young. So it's not a real happy situation. Let's go back to age verification. Now, obviously, those laws are getting a lot of attention in the media. Why should people care about these laws even if they don't consume porn? So there's a saying. It's a very old saying. It something miners used to do. Miners who went underground literally to mine whatever diamonds. Hey, I'm a 49er fan. Come on. I know what that is. Okay. But a lot of people didn't. And I can remember, sometimes we think that we speak and it's into a void. Those of us who do advocacy, we don't know that our words are resonating with anybody. So I always used to say either that this is the camel's nose under the tent and you can be sure that the rest of the camel's going to follow. That was one thing I used to say. And I always said adult content, the adult community, everything to do with sex and sexuality is the canary in the coal mine. The genesis of that, that came from the fact that miners used to carry a canary in with them in a cage because the gases that would come out of the ground could be dangerous. And they had no way of knowing back then. It's not like we had little monitors. And so if the canary died, the miners knew they had to get out of the mine. I never knew where that saying came from. Thank you. See that? You're welcome. Wow, I'm learning. Yeah. Yeah. So it's okay. I had to explain it to Mike Stabile too. And he uses it a lot. And he uses it all the time. And that's how I know that sometimes what I say, people pick up and use. And it's so true. Everything about adult entertainment, all of the censorship is the canary in the coal mine. This is where we're going. And it's easy to look and say, I don't look at porn. You know, the maybe 4% of the population that don't actually ever look at porn. I made up that number, by the way. That's not a real statistic. But it's easy to discount what's happening. That's not going to be on your Woodhole Facts site. No, it won't. It won't. It won't at all. Because our fact checks are academically researched. I know. Aren't they a wonderful resource? They are. They are. Yeah, that was a direct result of the fury and frustration around the lies that are told to justify actions that actually harm society instead of helping it. Right. So you were saying about the direction of the country's going and the age verification laws and how that affects the rest of us. Well, history repeats itself. Censorship always starts with sexual expression, and then it spreads. So look at the Smithsonian. Look what's happening there. Look at the Kennedy Center. Look at the AG removing books. Despite court decisions, this is going all the way back to the beginning of the interview, the painted sidewalks in Florida. What difference does it make? what color they are. But it's censorship. Oh, it is. Yes. Well, the governor of Florida is pretty good at that too. Oh my God. Between Florida and Texas. Oh God. Yeah, that guy. That guy. Yeah. Just awful. Yeah. Awful. But so why should everybody be concerned about the censorship, even if they don't look at porn? And it's because nothing stops with adult content. And it's not stopping here. So, you know, maybe you looked and you said, okay, so I have to give a driver's license to access this site or let them do a facial scan. And for me, it's worth it because I love porn. I love to watch it. It relaxes me. It's worth it. I don't care. The government knows all about me anyway. Okay. So now your data are in a database that no one can a hundred percent protect and where you go and what you look at on your device is now available ultimately to the government. I'm going to go on a little tiny tangent. Oh, go for it. We like those on the outside broker talk just to let you know. I always go on tangents. The poor people who work with me. So age verification to protect children, right? Theoretically, this seems to be the only action that parents support the government taking control away from them. Otherwise, all we hear is you can't tell me what to do with my children. You can't tell me what they're going to learn in school. You can't tell me what they're going to read. You can't tell me what they can and can't see when we're out and about. You can't tell me that they can't go to the library and have somebody in what looks to them, the children, like a really cool costume with lots of glitter. But you can control what my child has access to. Yep. But here's the craziness. They can control it. It's called parental controls. I know. But they don't use them. And you know why? Because it doesn't matter that much to them. If it mattered, they would use the parental controls. Tell that mom in Kansas that got egged on by the anti-porn group. Well, that's what happens. Yes, exactly. You know, they embrace that national dialogue. That's another reason we have fact check. That's another reason we debunk things like, you know, does it really harm children? So it's not that they care. If they cared, these parents, they would have had parental controls on their devices. They didn't care until they saw a commercial. You know, people are impulse buyers. Parents impulse bought this. And now they care. Now their children are at terrible risk. Well, you know, let's sue all the parents who didn't put parental controls on devices. I've always felt that parents should have to pass a course. And if they don't pass the course, they can't be parents, personally, in any way. But that's from somebody with no kids. So there you go. There is no course that would cover everything. I can tell you that. I know. But I've seen a lot. I've seen too much. Opponents of adult content often conflate it with exploitation or trafficking. Now, how does this narrative harm legitimate creators and human rights advocacy? Well, it's very clever of them. This is like the two flags that pass legislation, protect the children and end trafficking. So if you just talk about the truth, which is that consensual sex work is a job like any other job and trafficking is not. Trafficking is without consent. But if you conflate them, you've got that flag. So it's like a two for one. Well, we'll say we can stop trafficking and that will also stop all sex work. Well, neither one is working. And, you know, here's the thing. Everything is about sex. Even the attacks on the LGBT community, LGBTQ plus community, I should say, nobody cares who you want to go shopping with. They care who you want to have sex with and what that sex looks like. So it's, you know, it's really, it's the same here. It's about sex. Otherwise, it's just labor. It's just labor. As long as it's consensual, it's just labor. And that's the big difference between sex work and trafficking. Way, way, way back, maybe 15 years ago, there was someone in the White House, Harold Coe, I think was his name. And he met with a group from the sex work community. And it was a 10-minute meeting that ended up being about 45 minutes with an invitation to return and talk to the rest of his staff because he didn't understand the difference between consensual sex work and trafficking. And he was fascinated. But, you know, that's when we had someone who cared what was true and what was false. Well, we got the biggest liar on God's earth in the White House now. Unbelievable. Yeah, he's good at it. Because he just makes it fun. In my work, I get to talk to people on both sides of the aisle and in the middle. And the people who support Trump, they always have the same response when I'll say, yes, but what about? Because for some reason, I keep believing that something is going to get through. And their answer is, you know, he's just fucking with you. He's just joking. He's kidding. They're not wrong. I know that. And you know what? If I didn't despise him so much, I'd be entertained by him. Well, and they are. The people who support him are entertained by him. That's one of the places we went wrong in the last election. Let's not even talk about that. Let's see the nominee. Let's just start there. Let's just start there. Just anointing somebody as opposed to nominating them. Yeah. Yeah. We did a few things wrong. Let's hope we do better in this election. I'm not even sure if it's a we anymore because it's really hard for me to identify with the Democratic Party, with the state that the Democratic Party is in. I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I have a really hard time identifying with the party because the party is so royally fucked up. And, you know, I mean, they don't really stand for me, okay? They stand for themselves, just like every other political group. I just wish to God there was a third choice that had a chance of winning. unfortunately the two-party system still rules it does and so let's start with let's hope we have an election i put nothing past him no you well you've heard you've heard what bill maher says about that no tell me well he says that he's not leaving he said it the first time oh yeah and he said he said that he'll run for a third term and he probably will assuming he lives until then he probably will Yeah, one can only hope. But then again, if he dies, we get him. Yeah, but you know, him doesn't have the charisma that Trump has. He's got the charisma of a doormat. And I think doormats have more charisma. Well, the bottom of the doormat, the part that goes against the cement. Exactly. But, you know, then we would have a better chance in the election. But, you know, I don't look anymore at the Democratic Party because like you, I'm disgusted. I don't have an ounce of violence in me. Like I never hit my kids or grandkids, never. But I want to walk into Congress and slap everybody and say, what is the matter with you? Yeah, if it would help, sure. But now I am relating to individuals, like Governor Pritzker. I love him. I love what he's doing about Chicago. It'll be interesting to see. He is standing up to Trump. Yes. I love Cory Booker. Yeah. That would be an interesting ticket. A Jewish man and a black man. There you go. And, oh, what's the name of the Jewish governor who's gay? god i can't think right now but there's another know that there's another governor who's i think who i think is brilliant i can't think of his name and then there's mayor pete who i absolutely would vote for i love him god he's amazing i voted for him in the primary over biden well biden had his own issues yeah just a bit yeah unfortunately unfortunately four years too late that's that's That's the real sad part about it. But there were reasons. How have attacks on adult content creators impacted broader free expression online? Oh, that's a wonderful question. Well, then give me a wonderful answer. Okay. Okay. So, I think in part, because the government doesn't really, the courts and the government don't really understand everything about the internet. I could say I don't understand everything about the internet. Yeah, well, the politicians don't have a clue how it works. Of course, if you look at the Senate, it's a bunch of 80-year-olds. Right. I mean, because I still work, I consider myself tech savvy. My husband is retired. He's baffled by where his messages go on his phone. It happens. It happens. So how do these attacks affect everybody else? You know, we talked earlier about invoking the Comstock law and what the impact of that'll be. And this is why we follow these laws and track them and comment on them here at Woodhull. So it's a domino effect. It's a digital domino effect. So once platforms start banning lawful content, all expression is at risk. So you may not play video games. Well, they're already going after some games, as we know. Yep. On the international stage, there's a horrible rollout of age verification in the UK. That has been just a disaster. The Online Safety Act, oh God. My broker tip today is part one of what to do to make your site more valuable for when you decide to sell it later. First, make sure you're converting as much of your traffic as possible. Traffic's expensive, whether it's search engine traffic, review site traffic, or affiliate traffic. You paid a lot for it. So make sure that when someone lands on your site, you give them every opportunity possible to either spend money or do whatever it is you want your visitors to do. In the case of a pay site, make sure your billing options allow as many people as possible to buy. Have multiple ways to pay. In North America, most everyone has a credit card. But in other parts of the world, credit cards aren't used nearly as much. In Europe, for instance, credit card usage is low. So look for billing options that will match the areas where your traffic comes from. In Europe, ACH and debit cards are used a lot. In Africa and other developing nations, many people pay by mobile. Do your homework and find out how people pay in the regions you get most of your traffic. It will make you more money. The worst thing you can do is get a visitor, have them want to buy, but since you don't have their preferred way to pay, they can't. If you're looking for suggestions, feel free to get in touch with me via my website. Along with this is to improve your user experience. Make your site attractive and easy to navigate. People have more options than ever these days. I can't tell you how many sites I go to, even some that are owned by large companies, where the navigation isn't obvious to the user. You poke around for what seems like forever to do something that should be relatively easy. Keep it simple. Before you launch any changes to your site, ask your friends to go to the site and check it out. Unfortunately, designers and tech geeks don't think like us. You need real people to look at your site for you. The same kind of people who will be visiting your site. We'll talk about this subject more next week. And next week, we'll be once again speaking with Ricci Levy of Woodhull Freedom Foundation. And that's it for this week's Adult Site Broker Talk. I'd once again like to thank my guest, Ricci Levy. Talk to you again next week on Adult Site Broker Talk. I'm Bruce Friedman.
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