This is Bruce Friedman of Adult Side Broker and welcome to Adult Site Broker Talk, where each week we interview one of the movers and shakers of the adult industry and we give you a tip on buying and selling websites. This week we'll be speaking with Derek Hanjora of Havven. I'll be in Cali, Columbia for the LAL Expo April 27th through the 29th I hope to see many of you there If you'd like to sit down and discuss business contact me at adultsidebroker.com We're proud to announce our latest project thewaronporn.com You'll find articles on age verification laws and other attacks on our industry. It's to raise awareness of our industry's plight in the war on porn. You'll find all that and more at thewaronporn.com. Now time for our properties for sale at AdultSite Broker. We have a buyer who's looking for OnlyFans agencies, chatting companies, and OnlyFans traffic sites. He owns one of the top OnlyFans agencies in the world and many of the types of companies listed above. They have a large budget to acquire multiple properties. We have a premium AI companion platform focused on emotional realism and deep memory. Users interact with lifelike companions that remember every detail and respond with real emotion. They've just added advanced video capabilities. We're offering a growing free porn gaming site with adult sex games. The site is owned by one of the top entrepreneurs in our industry. We have a network of BDSM subreddits that has over 1.49 million users, over 3.8 million posts, and almost 45,000 comments. We have a buyer who's looking for dating and lifestyle sites in Europe. They'll also consider other geos. They currently operate some very successful sites. There's a unique platform that bridges the gap between mainstream social link services like Linktree and adult content creators on platforms like OnlyFans. They combine a bio link with the ability to sell virtual gifts. And there's a highly active, organically grown Reddit community centered around the stocking and foot fetish niches. It's one of the leading spaces for adult fetish content on Reddit. For more information on any of these listings, go to our listings page or contact us at adultsitebroker.com. Now time for this week's interview. My guest today on Adult Site Broker Talk is Derek Hanjora of Haven. Derek, thanks for being with us on Adult Site Broker Talk. Hey, Bruce, how are you? I'm good. And you? Been good. Good. Good. Yeah, yeah. We were talking offline about the first 36 hours, and we'll discuss that during the podcast. Sounds interesting. So Derek's been a UX designer for over 18 years, and his entire career has been built on one simple rule, always put the user first. He loves taking complex problems and turning them into solutions that feel simple and impactful. More recently, he shifted gears from being a designer to becoming a founder. He started his own company so he could channel all his expertise into a project that he's incredibly passionate about, Haven. It's not just another social media app. It's his vision of a secure and thoughtfully designed digital sanctuary for the kink, alternative lifestyle, and LGBTQ plus communities. Sanctuary Innovations is the company behind Haven. They're a team of tech veterans who are also authentic community insiders. They've personally experienced the digital homelessness and censorship that their communities face on mainstream platforms. Their mission is to build a safe and inclusive digital sanctuary. So, Derek, even before I ask the first question, it's pretty wild. You were telling me about your first 36 hours, how you had some server problems, how the site was so popular that the server crashed three times. and you're already up to a thousand users in 36 hours. That's amazing. Yeah, it was pretty crazy. We launched officially into our beta last Wednesday at 8 p.m. Eastern time. And then by 9.30 p.m. Eastern time, we were down. Just overwhelmed the servers that bad. And then we weren't able to get it back up until the next day. And at that point, we were like, let's go ahead and double what we have on our server side. So we did that. And it still went down. And then Friday, we went live again with 128 times our server load and still went down. So then we reconfigured all weekend long to have basically an elastic serverless type system. And now we've been fully live for 36 hours with no issues. And we're right around 1,000 users already. It's incredible. Obviously, there's a desire for what you're selling. So to start, tell us about yourself and tell us about Haven. Absolutely. So again, my name is Derek. I started with UX design back in 2007. And weird story to get into that, but we can go into that for another time. But I started designing in 2007 and then did a bunch of great stuff between 2007 and 2018. And then in 2018, me and my ex-wife decided to open up our relationship and get a little kinky and do some things. You know, we became poly and we just kind of joined the, you know, we joined the community, really started diving in. And one of the first parties we were introduced to, they were like, hey, why don't you come to this party? But you have to go on FetLife to accept the invitation. I'm like, cool. What the hell is FetLife? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's, FetLife is very, very commonly used, you know, for kink events. So, I mean, it was no surprise to me once I learned what it was. But the first time I logged into it, I was, I almost barfed. I mean, I was so disgusted with, not the site itself. I mean, obviously I knew what I was logging into. I'm talking about the user experience. Made me just, it felt like, even though it was 2018, the site still felt like it was, you know, from 2008, which it was. the UI has barely been updated. It was just, it didn't feel fun to me. Even with all the cool stuff I got to do inside of it, it just never felt fun to me. And I immediately said, I can do something better. And even if it just turned out to be a passion project that I could put on my portfolio about, Hey, look at something I did better. That's cool. But as I started researching, it turned into something more. So as I started doing the research and the, you know, doing the user interviews and so on and so forth, and all these roundtable discussions that I did to research what I was doing, came across a whole bunch of litany of complaints about FetLife that I was completely unaware of, such as widespread issues of child pornography or issues of bullying and hate running rampant through. Right now, there's MAGA people going through vet life running amok and nobody's doing anything about it. Now, everything I say is coming from the community because whether I found this information to be factual or not, or whether or not I have physically seen it, the point is my users think it's there. So it's real to me. Perception is reality. Absolutely. Now, again, to avoid legal issues, I am not saying that I've seen these things and I'm not claiming that they exist. I'm saying the user research has told me these things. So, I'm trying to fix their perception of these things. Even if it's not happening, the point is they think it's happening. Yeah, well, perception is reality, right? Exactly. And in my research, again, I found that roughly every – I'm not sure the exact percentage, but new users leave on average in 10 minutes on fat life. So, there was just a whole deep-seated issue that I found within FetLife. But they're the only game in town. They were. Yeah, they were up until now. There was at one point a consumer group within FetLife that tried to create a watchdog group. And then anyone that got reported was banned from FetLife. They were doing some crazy stuff. And then also, there's a whole thread on Reddit, you can look this up, where people claim that the owner and the people that work for FetLife call themselves the rape apes. Again, this is all alleged, but regardless of whether it's true or not, this is what people are saying online about this company. As my mom used to say, where there's smoke, there's fire. Correct. So whether there's truth or there's claims or not, it's not the point. The point is the users feel unsafe. And then over the last few years, it's evolved even more. With the bullshit that's going on in the U.S. right now and across the globe, you know, there's a lot of, you know, the queer folk and the LGBTQ and the trans and, you know, just people like that just don't fit, quote unquote, the normal society, you know, are just, they're constantly being bullied and pushed into different things. And it's the amount of nonsense that is allowed to occur on social media when it comes to violence. Now, arguing, calling somebody an asshole, whatever the case might be, hell, you know, whatever. That's going to happen. Well, that's social media, yeah. Correct. But the point is when you're having an adult discussion and all of a sudden you start getting trashed and bullied and, you know, degraded for being who you are. That's no longer an argument between two different two adults. And that's where the line has become because now that line has become so blurred that that's why when I advertise Haven, it's not about it being the new FetLife. It's not about being the new anything. It's coming completely different because we wanted it to not only just replace FetLife. We wanted it to be just something different for everybody. And that's why it's not just a social media site. we call it a digital ecosystem because it's not just that. It's also, there's going to be a marketplace aspect of things. And there's also going to be the content creator aspect of things as well. So not only can you go on there and plan your events and make friends, community, whatever else the case might be, you can also shop and sell goods in our marketplace just as if you were an Etsy seller. And then you can also be a content creator, just like if you were on OnlyFans are fansly. So, it's an all-around marketplace for everything adult alternative. Because it's not just kink. It's not just BDSM. It's not just content creators. It's not just voyeurs. It's not just whatever. It's this vast group of individuals that exist on this planet that just want to be treated as such regardless of what they do in their bedroom or what they do in their personal life. Because that's nobody's fucking business. No, you're right. You're absolutely right. And it's not supposed to be in a country that has freedom of speech or used to have freedom of speech anyway before this administration. And the First Amendment is something that, well, it's the first one, right? And, you know, but that's being trashed by the current political climate. It is. And the sad thing about it is, too, is we know something that they don't want us to know. And we're going to exploit that. So here's the thing. If anyone that's in the sex community at all knows, over the last few years, there's been rumors, and it's been confirmed over the last year, that every time, or nearly every time, I should say, allegedly, there is some type of Republican National Convention or Republican rally. The Grindr app shuts down in that city. Why do you think that is, Bruce? Jeez. They're IP blocking it. Well, I know that a lot of these people are hypocrites, let's face it. They're shutting down the servers. They're overwhelming the servers. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I thought about that as soon as I said what I said. Yeah, well, like I said, they're hypocrites. And that's the point. So we're going to advertise to them as in like, hey, we know what you're doing behind the shadows. Come to us and you can be free to yourself. The point is, this is not just an app for kinky people. It most certainly is. But that's not just what it is. Because there's a range. It's a spectrum. Because the thing about it is, too, in this adult alternative nation, you know, platform, as I'm calling it, the reality is none of these people are alternative people. We're just alternative to society. And so, you know what? I'm just calling it that way because nobody's alternative. Nobody's normal. And the quicker we realize that, the better off everyone will be. But you know what? By society standards, we're alternative adults. But the point is, whether you're a kinky person who can't find a community or whether you're just a 25-year-old who has spent his entire life as an outcast and still can't find anybody just to have a beer with, that potentially might have a fucking gun in his mouth because he's just so over life. Come to Haven. We will support you. Everybody is supported on our platform. We are building it strictly all based on community because it seems like community is the last thing anyone's thinking about these days. Unfortunately, you're right. So, you've used the term digitally homeless before, and you said that these communities are indeed digitally homeless. Can you explain what that means? Absolutely. All right. So, say, for instance, you were on FetLife. You no longer want to be on FetLife. As an example. As an example. But at the same time, you could also be like, oh, I've heard bad things about FetLife and I never want to go there to begin with. So regardless of that, you don't want to be there for whatever reason. Okay. Being that that's the only place out there, you have to find some type of alternative. So you have Reddit, but Reddit is then broken down by 20 different subreddit groups for just one different type of kink. And then you have 50 for another style. It's like, so which one do you want to join into? It's so much over there. And then at that point, you're mixing your one side of your life with another side. So your Reddit feed becomes nothing but sex. And then you just, you have so much to do. But then there's also Facebook groups. You have to be beat around the bush and talk about what you want to talk about, but not in an explicit way. And you can't post any good photos. You can't do anything like that. So the thing about it is if you don't want to be in this unsafe area known as FetLife, where else can you go? But then at the same time, if you're part of the LGBTQ community, you post on there anything these days, you're going to get bullied and harassed. Fed life, huh? No, no. I'm talking about on Facebook. Oh, Facebook. Sure. Yeah. If you're on Facebook, I'm saying just in general, general, if you're on Facebook, and you're gay and you post, then you're going to get ridiculed by other people for being gay. Or you're seeing these constant news feeds with all this anti-gay rhetoric. You know, if there's so, or you just post on Facebook or Twitter or whatever the case might be, hey, I'm looking for a friend. Whatever the case might be, and you're just laughed at. The point is, unless you fit the normal standards of who people think they should be, you're ridiculed these days. We are actively being censored in this country and we are literally losing our free speech. The people that, once you take that away, are using free speech to their advantage. So it's like, it's a catch-22. And why should we have to sit there and deal with it anymore? So we're going to build something new. We want to do something different. Is it going to change the landscape of social media? No. Would I love that to happen? Absolutely. But it's not. I mean, Zuckerberg and Musk and all those others don't give a shit about what I'm doing, which is fine. I'm going to sit on my little corner of the internet and I'm going to make my money and keep my community happy. That's what matters. Until one of them wants to acquire you. And you know, it's funny you say that. I don't think I would ever allow it to happen. because I've been working on this for seven years. And to just be like, no, it's not a cash grab. I don't plan on it being profitable for a while. And I don't want it to be some multi-quadrillion dollar business that somebody wants to take over and completely ruin. No, I mean, I want to live my life comfortably. I want to pay my people comfortably and have a happy community. At the end of the day, that's all that matters. Sure. So who all would be the prime targets for your site? So first and foremost, obviously anybody in the kink, you know, our BDSM community. Because again, I mean, we're advertising ourselves as a fat life alternative, 100%. But we are more. But so first and foremost is the kink and BDSM community. Then would come, you know, along with them, obviously the LGBTQ community. Along with that, then is the people that would go to OnlyFans and subscribe to content. But the difference here is this. On OnlyFans, there's a lot of content restrictions. Ours are going to be a lot less restrictive. And also, we're not going to take as big as a cut from OnlyFans. OnlyFans takes a 20% cut. We're only going to take 17%. So we're going to undercut OnlyFans as well. And then the same thing with our marketplace. Etsy averages between 12% and 15% per transaction for some of these shop owners. And we're just going to keep it at a 12% flat fee. So we're going to make sure that it's transparent for everybody that works with us and wants to partner with us. So what types of items do you see being on the marketplace? If you can sell it on Etsy, you can sell it with us. But then at the same time, there's other things you can be selling on there as well. Somebody who wants to be a creator on our app wants to do live nude paintings. So they will be nude and they just want to paint in the nude. And then they're going to sell those pieces of art in the shop. And then we have people who make custom butt plugs and custom tails and all that other stuff and leathers and stuff like that, obviously. Masks and all that stuff. Correct. Yeah. And then we're going to have our own line of toys and other things like that in there as well. Very good. Why do you feel mainstream social media platforms have failed these specific communities? Because they're not mainstream. And it's looked down upon. You know, you say you're going to a kink club or you say that you're going to anything sex-related. You're looked at as a deviant. Even in 2025, you're looked at as a deviant. You know, right now, OnlyFans does about $6 billion a year in revenue. And then on top of that, Fansly does about $4 billion a year in revenue. So two companies alone who literally do nothing but pretty much sell sex. I know OnlyFans is doing more than that, but you know what I'm saying. But $10 billion a year, people are buying it like crazy, and yet it's still looked down upon. Yeah. I would say actually in 2025, especially now because of the current political climate, That it's okay to hate. That hate is in fashion. I can't remember the specifics, but I remember my marketing manager telling me like a week or two ago that because of the political climate and because of the potential of the government shutdown, which we're now in, she was saying that, according to her research, in times like this, the sex industry actually sells more. So more than likely, we're going to have like triple digit increases in the sex industry this year because of the political climate, which is insane to me. I've seen it. I've seen it before. And I should give the standard disclaimer. We're recording this October 17th, and this will run the early part of 2026. So if we're talking about things that happened before, but God knows the way things are going, we could still be in a government shutdown in February or March. Who knows? Yeah, exactly. It's so nice to live in Thailand. Oh my God. Things impact me less being out of the United States. I come back for visits and to go to shows and things like that. But as soon as I leave, I go, ah, nice to be leaving. And as soon as I get home, I really do a sigh of relief because it's great to be back. So can you share a specific example or story that illustrates the kind of censorship or stigma that inspired you? As far as like the stories that I've heard, I could tell you a thousand. Tell me a couple. Oh, God. All right. Hold on one second. Let me pull up my research real quick here. Therefore, I can make sure I give accurate information. Yeah, because it's funny. Let's hear some stories. This is in the last year. I can go ahead and sum up everything I found from the last seven years into this one Reddit post that was from eight months ago. The name of the Reddit post is FetLifeFuckedUs. And they didn't even kiss us, right? No, but I don't think they ever have. There's this whole Reddit thread in there about nothing but except for what they've experienced. So I'll read a couple to you. My experience is that most of the people on there are mostly fake profiles, angry incels, and people looking for traditional relationships. You know, green card marriages. So that's this guy's experience. Here's another one. After receiving a novel from somebody I've never spoken to about why I should consider entering the scat life, FetLife is now a no from me. Oh, geez. And this is after getting zero greeting messages from others asking me to pee in their mouth or let me pee on them. And then one time just people just can send a – I can't even read this one anymore. Let me move on. It is a kink in all fairness. However, not exactly a mainstream kink. It's not even about being kink shamed. No, no, no, no, no. It's the fact that this lady or whoever this person was. But the point is they had just logged in. And that was their experience, yeah. Correct. And within 10 minutes, somebody received or they received a novel from this person talking about why you should enter the scat life with me. So again, it's not about the kink. Who cares what they do? I don't care what you do. I don't care if you enjoy scat, whatever. I'm never going to catch me watching that, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to judge you for it. No, I don't care about that. It's the fact that this person had to go through that just by logging onto a site that they were just trying to experience. A couple of things, like people are like, it looks really outdated. There's a high number of users, but nobody's really out there. And then my favorite one that I found in the last year is on this thread, it says, that life has way bigger and deeper issues than the ones listed here. Sex very well is and can be transactional. Sex workers are valid and there's nothing wrong with that. However, everything that this group is saying is true and it's based in a darker truth, which is that the owner of the site and all his little cronies are trash people. They're predators, every single one of them, to the point that they give themselves the nickname the rape apes. They're racist, misogynistic pieces of garbage. FetLife operates exactly the same way the owner wants it to. That post right there is real or not. People feel that way. And that right there is why I wanted to do something different. Okay. Okay. What exactly does Haven offer that's different from what's currently available from other platforms such as FetLife? Absolutely. So, again, it's not just FetLife. It's going to be everything. So, I'll go ahead and name a few. So, first off, one of my favorite features that's not turned on yet, and I'll explain why in a second, but it will be turned on when we go live, is anti-screenshot protections. Now, you can still get around that. I'm not going to lie, you know, but you have to be a techie to understand how to get around. it. But anti-screenshot protections are we going to put in there. So it's going to make it harder for your content to be stolen. And then we're going to continue to evolve that to try to make it even harder as it goes. On top of that, live human moderation. That's going to be a big one. Yeah. It's going to be an expensive one. Yeah. Well, I'm going to put my daughter to work. Oh, God. They're 25 and they need a job. They can get to work. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm kidding. But no, anyway, no, live moderation is going to be a big one. But then we are going to use AI. And as much as I hate to do it, we're doing it for a good reason. So first off, we're going to age verification. And we will have age verification, unlike FetLife. So age verification is a must, because obviously there's a lot of laws going on in the States right now, like Texas, Virginia, Florida, a couple others have age verification laws. You don't have to tell me. I've got the website, thewaronporn.com. That's one of my sites, and it's all about the attacks on the industry. So if you haven't checked it out, check it out. Yep. So I have to have that, but we're using it to our advantage. A couple other things that we're going to do with it, aside from age verification at signup, live streaming will have age verification on it on the back end. Therefore, say, for instance, a content creator invites another content creator over to have a scene with or whatever, do a live stream with. As long as that person comes up 18 years old or older on our back end stream, it's fine. You know what I'm saying? So, we'll be able to verify age through all of our live streams, which is very, very critical because at any point, somebody can go in there and just, you know, same thing. But then the last one is the most important one, and that's going to scan for child pornography, CSAM. So, our policy will be in our company. Every CSAM incident that is reported, hopefully we'll never have one, but if we ever do have one reported, it needs to be handled within five minutes. So I'm going to go ahead and tell everybody in the world, if you come to Haven, this is what's going to happen. If you try to upload child pornography, our AI will catch it. And within five minutes, if we verify it, you will be reported with your IP to the local police department. So I just want to let you know, we are tracking that kind of stuff. We're taking it very, very seriously. You should also cooperate with ASACP, which is the child protection arm of the adult industry. Absolutely. We're going to be, we've already thought about them entering that as well. The whole point is we want to do something that is unheard of today in social media and that's called ethics. So like, we're never going to sell your information either. You know, we're not going to sell information. We're going to be a hundred percent transparent with everything. If you see an ad on our website, somebody paid us for that ad a hundred percent. You know, if you see a content creator on there, we are in a contract with them. That's how it works. Transparent and ethics on everything. That's another big one. But then overall, it's just about, again, being something that's different. So with that being said, you know, that kind of stuff. But again, we will have that marketplace aspect. So you can come to Haven and pretty much do whatever you want to do. You can also watch content, create content. A couple of things that we're going to be doing is some fun stuff too. So one of the things that we want to do is once the marketplace is set up, we're going to have a 24-hour-a-day stream that will be kind of like a home shopping network type feed where we'll actually contract content creators to do like a four-hour, two-hour stream of nothing but like testing products and selling products and stuff like that. And we'll, if they want to sell products on that time, whatever, but we'll be able to basically, you know, test out products and have like a feed of, you know, different types of stuff like that. And then also we're looking into contracting with some creators to produce some of our own adult content, but that is not sex-based adult content. More like parody type content and TV type content and just shows and other things like that. Again, we're making it a little bit of everything for everybody because we want you to enjoy the time on the internet. If you want to watch a TV show on our platform, you can do it. If you want to just meet somebody and talk to somebody and meet a group of people, you can do that too. Whatever you want to do, you can do it. That's fabulous. How do you balance creating a safe space with protecting free expression? That has been a hotly debated topic in my Discord with all about this. So it's kind of evolved over time. Originally, two or three months ago, I should say, not even originally, but two or three months ago, I wanted to have politics not on the site at all. I kind of wanted to make a politics-free zone. But then after talking to the community members, they were like, you know, I get what you're doing. I understand why you're saying that. But if we're going to try to be a safe community, let us try to make it safe on our own first. And I'm like, you know what, that's fair. But my biggest problem was, and this is what I was kind of going with them on, is just logging on and the first thing you see is nothing but news content of just horrible things. Sounds like the dilemma that XBiz had and they finally put it in its own forum, but it took years. Yeah. So, I wanted to do the same thing. So, I wanted to have them in a separate forum. I wanted to have politics-only groups, communities, that therefore you had a choice to whether or not you wanted to be involved in that. However, the community said, no, we don't want to do that right now. Let's see if we can monitor ourselves. So the agreement we came to was all content has to be tagged in a category. It can even be tagged as a general, but it also needs to be marked not safe for work or safe for work. And then finally, if it's political or news content. So if it's marked as political or news content, you can actually turn that off in your algorithm and be able to make sure you never see that at all. So we actually implemented a customizable algorithm that will make that as much, like it's still going to take a lot of time. But to build that algorithm is going to be so much easier because it's going to be based off of those tags. And since we're requiring mandatory tagging, it's going to be able to build our algorithm that much better, that much quicker to where people actually get to see the feed they actually want to see. Sure. Now, this kind of goes along with what you were just talking about, and I think you just answered part of it. The community is a core part of your mission. How have you involved community members in the development of Haven? So over my seven years of researching this, I did over 250 user interviews. And I did something like 53 or 54 or something like that, roundtable discussions, focus groups, to really get the research that I needed. And then on top of that, since we've been building live, we've also had our Discord group in front of us. And they're giving us our opinions, what they want, what they want to talk about. And before we make any decisions, we usually go to them and say, hey, this is what we're thinking about. What do you guys think? And before it goes out to the public, I have our terms of service and our community guidelines and all that stuff like that went to the Discord group first. And then they vetted it. And then we kind of went with that. And now everybody in our Discord group is our beta testers, and they are loving it. They're like, challenge accepted. We'll find every single bug for you. Nice. They did it. And oh, yeah, we found every bug in the last three days. So thanks to them. That's amazing. So the market for alternative lifestyles is estimated to be over $50 billion. How are you planning to capture a significant share of that market? And maybe along with that, you can talk about your monetization model, which I'm sure it feeds right into that. Absolutely. So, a couple of different things. Number one, according to surveys in just North America, so all of North America, including Mexico and Canada, then the UK, there are, according to surveys, around 200,000 adults, 200 million adults that participate in or have participated in some type of kink event. 200 million people between basically four countries, five countries. The majority of them, obviously, here in the States. Let's say three regions, you know, Canada, South America, and then, you know, America and then the UK. Between three regions, 200 million people. SpetLife has 12 million users. That's a huge gap. So that right there alone, and that number is worldwide. Bruce. I'm talking 200 million people just from three different areas, okay? So now, am I able to capture all 200 million of those people? Absolutely not. But if I take half of that number, so 100 million, and then expand it to worldwide numbers, because I'm going to go worldwide in the next couple of years, there's no reason why I can't hit 100 million users. There's no reason at all. With Facebook having over a billion, TikTok having 200 million in just US alone, I can capture 100 million worldwide. You know what I'm saying? I think that is a very reasonable goal. But even at 50 million users, users, it's still profitable. But regardless, let's go with this. Okay. So, FetLife currently makes on average around between $12 and $19 million a year. It's not a public company, so not a lot of that stuff is readily accessible. That's just what I could find, somewhere between $12 and $19 million a year. So, that means they make about $1 to $1.5 per user per year. That's not that great. No, it's not. Facebook and Meta make $40 and OnlyFans makes $25. So, $25 per user and $40 per user. Very, very respectable. I'd take either. Our goal is $15 per user. So, at 100 million users, do the math, 1.5 billion. Again, my ultimate goal is 100 million users. However, my first long-term realistic goal is $20 million for five years. And to hit a million is the goal for the end of next year. So, we have a lot of different things planned. One of my favorite ones is we're going to be marketing in the South using billboards with a gay Jesus and people standing around in our bunny mask behind him. And with using the website, nothing else is going to say anything. It's just going to be that picture. And if you guys go onto the Haven website, the Haven site, and go under my profile, you'll see the photo there. But it's just a photo of that. It's a cartoon image. And then on the bottom, it's going to say, Godlovestegays.com. That should be interesting. It is. It's going to be. Because I hate what I'm about to say, but everyone knows what I'm about to say, if you know what I'm about to say. There is a lovely church in Kansas, I believe they are, known as the Westboro Baptist Church. And they have the website, and again, excuse my French, God hates fags.com. Oh, geez. Yeah, no, it's horrible. So we're going to advertise everywhere around there and all around the south with God loves the gays.com. You really like pushing buttons, don't you? Oh, you haven't even heard the best one yet, Bruce. Next Friday. Oh, no, actually, no. So this is you. So this will air in January. So at this point, now for two months, which will start officially on October 24th, we're going to start streaming a promotional talk show, air live on Twitch, Facebook, and YouTube called Live with Jesus and Friends. We're going to have Jesus interview people about the kink lifestyle and the LGBTQ community and the bullying and the other things like that. We're going to basically use Jesus' own words against them because everything that is going to be said by Jesus will have been said by Jesus according to the Bible. You follow where I'm going with this? Oh, yes. I most definitely do. Sounds like it's going to be fun. You just launched your beta and relaunched and relaunched, and now you've really launched your beta. What are the key milestones you hope to achieve, and how is it going so far? Obviously, I'm sure in 36 hours, you must be thrilled. So our first goal is to make it to January, where we'll release the official product. We're in beta right now, and we have a very, very bland looking UI. And we did that for a very intentional reason, because we don't want people to go in there and worrying about that right now. We want them to worry about the functionality. How's the user experience? Does it work well? Because the last month before we go live, all that UI is going to change and buttons and all this fun stuff is going to go in. Right now, I just want the users to care about, does it work? So with that being said, it's functionality goals and feature goals. So right now, we just launched with just bare minimum features. You can post, you can EM, and you can create events. The next one that's going to be going up in the next week or two will be the creator accounts and the creator functionality will be live along with live streaming capabilities. That's coming up as well. That's another advantage over FetLife. They don't have live streaming. Another thing that we're going to offer in-app is video calling as well. So you can use DM to video call. That's another thing that FetLife doesn't offer. So we'll have that as well. So with that, it's just the meeting, the live streaming and the creators was next. And then following that, we're releasing our communities and groups functionality. And our communities and groups functionality is going to be a little bit different than other platforms. First off, we're going to have the normal groups, you know, you know, post comment, post comment, you know, like Facebook or, you know, Reddit. But then we're also going to create our own chat room style discord, you know, stuff. So within the app, you can actually have real-time Discord-style conversations. So it's going to be like an old-school-style 90s chat room or Discord chat room from today, whatever you want to call it. It's going to be a chat room style as well as a group style. So we have two different ones. And then our marketplace is coming in December. In December as well, we're also going to be submitting the app to the app stores for review and making sure that all of the NSFW stuff is not in the app at all. And then so we can get the Play Store clearance, and then that'll go live in January as well. And then January, everything's live. Very good. Well, this is most likely to drop in March, so I'm sure you'll have pretty much everything implemented by then. What does the success of Haven mean on a personal level to you? A couple different things. First and foremost, seven years of my life proven. I've done a lot of, you know, other research, you know, for other projects, you know, whether it be for a big mouse company or whether it be some other giant, you know, movie company in Orlando as well. The other one that's not the mouse or whether it's music companies that are out of L.A. or whatever the case might be that I've done in the last 20 years. Nothing has ever felt as magical as it is for this because it's my own thought. I mean, obviously, I'm not doing this for any, you know, I'm doing it for myself to prove myself I can do this. But at the end of the day, I'm doing it for an underserved community. Because again, it's not just whether or not you're being accepted for your, you know, the bedroom behavior. It's about being accepted fully for who you are. And to be able to just sit there and say, I accept you as a human being. That's what this is about. It's personal connection. And being able to prove that and be able to pull that off in 2025, I think is a pretty fucking miracle. So if I can do that and prove that community can still exist and we can overcome differences and we can overcome the bullshit of life to actually get together and say, hey, we're humans. Let's get through this together. I would be pretty proud of myself for that. As you should be. Where can our listeners go to learn more about Haven and to sign up? All right. So our website is haven.me. So it's H-A-V-V-E-N dot me, Haven dot me. And they can find everything there. And by the time this drops, I think it sounds like everything will be there, right? Oh, absolutely. At that point, the whole entire thing will be live, ready to go. Fabulous. Derek, I'd like to thank you for being with us today on Adult Site Broker Talk. And I hope we'll get a chance to do this again soon. Thank you very much, Bruce. Thank you. My broker tip today is part one on how to buy a site. The first question to ask yourself is what kind of site would you like to buy? Would you like a tube site, a cam site, a dating site, a membership site, a social media site, or something else? If you want to buy a membership site, what type of site do you want and in what niche? There are literally hundreds of niches and many sub-niches. For instance, let's say you want to buy a gay site. Under gay, there's bears are mature, bareback, Asian, Latino, amateur, bi, black, euro, and fetish, along with many fetishes under that classification. Plus, there's hardcore, jocks, porn stars, solo, trans, twinks, and uniforms. Straight has even more sub-niches. I can't tell you how many people contact me and just say, I want to buy a site, or I want to buy a pay site. I need more information than that. How you make this decision should be based on these factors. What interests you? What you enjoy should definitely play a part in what you buy. If you like men and want to make money on a straight site, that's probably a really bad idea. Same thing if you're straight and want to buy a gay site. So what you like plays a part. What's your budget? This is something you need to establish at the very beginning. Not only do you need to know what it is you're working with, But some classifications of sites are more expensive than others. For instance, if you want a cam site with any traffic or revenue at all, you're going to need a lot of money. In fact, to buy any established and successful site will be somewhat expensive. If you buy a site that's pretty much just a platform without traffic or sales, you're going to need a huge investment to build it up. In that case, it might actually be as good or better just to start your own site. That way you get exactly what it is you're looking for. We'll talk about this subject more next week. And next week, we'll be speaking with Steve Lightspeed from Porn.ai and Wowify.ai. And that's it for this week's Adult Site Broker Talk. I'd once again like to thank my guest, Derek Hanjora of Havven. Talk to you again next week on Adult Site Broker Talk. I'm Bruce Friedman. Thank you.
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